How 2022 Data Privacy Changes Are Effecting Digital Advertisers with Ad-Tech Expert James Purdhomme

Major Data Privacy changes are effecting Digital Advertisers around the world like we saw with Apple making significant changes to the privacy settings of its mobile operating system last year, allowing iPhone users to choose whether advertisers could track them.  Since Apple introduced the feature, a vast majority of iPhone users have opted to block tracking.

We talk with Ad-Tech Expert, James Prudhomme, who began his career at AOL and is now the Cheif Revenue Officer for Optable, a SaaS data connectivity platform designed for the advertising ecosystem in the age of privacy to discuss the following:

How are these changes effecting digital advertisers?
What data collection points are being collected and how are they used?
What data policy changes can we expect in the years to come?

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Duke McKenzie
LinkedIn - Duke McKenzie

Kyle Kaplanis
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IG - @kyle_kaplanis
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Transcript

Duke McKenzie: 0:00

All right, everybody on Tomorrow Today we have a special episode . It's going to be great. I'm very, very excited. I even changed from my black t-shirt to a colored shirt because we got a special, special guests. It's a great episode. I would like to introduce James Prudhomme. Hey James. Welcome. Welcome, welcome.

Kyle Kaplanis: 0:16

Welcome James..

James Prudhomme: 0:18

Hello Duke, hello Kyle. It's great to be here. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Duke McKenzie: 0:22

For full disclosure, I've known James for probably over 20 years now on

James Prudhomme: 0:26

yeah, long time

Duke McKenzie: 0:27

various areas of the industry. Your careers in ad tech and you got into there very early, you actually taught me a lot about it. I would love for you to take the Tomorrow Today, audience through your career path and your origin story and all that stuff.

James Prudhomme: 0:40

I'll start at where, Duke and I met, and that was working for AOL. And as Duke and I would affectionately put it, we were in the banner ad business. We were in the business of selling banner ads. We both started out really the same time, selling advertising digital advertising for AOL in the days when nobody advertised on digital. Everybody was spending money on TV, on print, on billboards, anything but digital. We struggled through it, but we made it happen. Duke and I together. Educated. A lot of people. And then at some point in my career, we were selling what I'll refer to as reserved media. So an advertiser would say, I want to reach a sports audience. So I'm going to advertise on the sports page on AOL, the sports section on AOL finance audience, going to advertise on the finance page, very contextual and very reserved. And then what started to happen was, Google came along, so Duke and I started even before there was Google and then Google came along.

Duke McKenzie: 1:25

You're aging me buddy, you're aging me

James Prudhomme: 1:27

and then they disrupted that whole paradigm because people didn't go to the sports page on AOL or on Yahoo or on MSN anymore when they want it to read about sports and went to Google and they searched for their favorite team. And then they could have went to a whole list of a hundred different websites. So what started to happen from an advertising point of view was that audience fragment. And in order to reach for a brand and an advertisement to reach that audience, they needed to start working with ad networks or companies that would aggregate and solve that fragmentation problem for them. So a company that would then go and say okay, All the 10 different sports sites that people really like to visit the top 10 sport sites. I'm going to form a relationship with them. And I'm going to go to an ad agency and say, you can buy all 10 of these sports sites, in one insertion order, et cetera. And so I became really interested in that part of the business. And then that part of the business started to evolve. Became very data-driven because now it was like, oh, I don't need to just advertise on the top 10 sports sites. I can find all the users who visited those sites of the last 30 days. And I know what sports they're interested in, what teams they support. And then I can go and find those users on other sites when they're browsing on news sites or finance sites or whatever, but I can still reach that sports audience. So that stuff to me was really interesting, really intriguing. That ended up evolving into what many people would know today as progromatic advertising. Which is very auction-based and just a much more efficient way of taking an advertiser's ad and placing it in front of the right person at the right time at the right place. And so that was the aspect of the business that I became really interested in, started to get really interested in how data was impacting advertising. Then I spent a number of years working for Index Exchange, which is one of the leading SSPs in ad exchanges.

Duke McKenzie: 3:07

What does SSP? When you say leading is

James Prudhomme: 3:08

SSP is sell side platform. So the two terms to consider a sell side platform, which is what the publishers work with, it's like a marketplace. They make their inventory available in a real time market place. And then you have DSP, which is demand side platform, which is what the advertisers and the ad agencies use to purchase those ads in that real-time marketplace. So these two things come together, and that's what allows real time programmatic advertising to take place. So recently I joined a company called Optable. I know we're going to talk a lot about privacy today. And Optable is a platform that allows two companies to collaborate on data. So it allows to companies who effectively don't know each other, don't trust each other to match up their data to see, what are your users doing on this website? What am my users buying in your retail store? It allows companies to share data and collaborate on data in a really safe, secure, and compliant way. So the data is never actually physically shared. We use cryptography and all sorts of, computer science stuff to make sure that data is never physically shared. It preserves the privacy of the user, but it still allows them analysis and insights and a whole bunch of really interesting things to take place. So that's the aspect of the business that I'm focused on today. And focused on the apex of where privacy data, and then these other changes that are happening with mobile IDs and cookies and all that going away. So it's an exciting time.

Kyle Kaplanis: 4:30

James, you touched base on a lot of really cool things on how things are changing within the ad side and you mentioned privacy at the end there. We do want to touch base about that because a lot of people that are listening are very interested in that. So talk to me a little bit more about privacy and data and what things are you seeing now? And how it may affect people soon.

James Prudhomme: 4:49

I'm based in London, in the UK. And in Europe, there's a legislation called the GDPR, the General Data Protection Regiment. And that was the first really significant piece of privacy legislation, anywhere in the world that it had a really profound impact on the industry. The fundamental position of that legislation is that the legislation refers to the data subject, but that's really me, you Kyle, Duke, you know everyone else, were all data subjects. The data subject is actually the owner of their data. If you go sign up for a bank account and you give that bank, your name, address, phone number, email address, that's actually your data. You own that data. The bank doesn't own that data. You give the bank permission and consent to use that data in order for them to give you the services that they give you. Managing your account, all of that stuff, but fundamentally that's your data. And that was a real big shift in how the GDPR.

Duke McKenzie: 5:45

Tell me a little bit about why, and then I'll let you continue. That seems like an important shift. When you say that's a big shift in the way, like, how were things looked at before and then why is that a big shift in the UK? And how that could affect America and the rest of the world. Sure.

James Prudhomme: 5:58

Yeah. Sure. Effectively let's use that bank example or mobile phone company can use that example as well. Previously, if you went and signed up for a mobile phone, the mobile phone company could consider that data, their data, they own this data on you. They know something about you. Your name, your address, your phone number, maybe some other stuff, as well as how you're using that phone to talk to and whatever. And theoretically, there was no law that prevented them from using that data pretty much any way they want wanted, they can aggregate it. They could track you, they could do a whole bunch of things that weren't necessarily in your best interest and nor were they necessary for that phone company to actually deliver you the service that you signed up for. Right? I want a phone. I want to talk to some people and I want to surf the internet with it and do these things.

CBS News: 6:40

So in 2016, Cambridge Analytica, CEO, Alexander nix told you, quote, we use nearly 5,000 different data points about you to craft and target a message. Can you tell us down what those data points represent? Some I can, some, we can only speculate about the data points that Cambridge gathered are very similar to what you fill in. When you go to a social network like Facebook, the others are far more interesting. For example, there is a technology called silver push silver pushes in many of the apps that we use today and it listens ambient. Just like Siri or Alexa might listen. And it sends that information back to the application that's using it, and it can create a profile based on what you are listening to or watching all without you doing a search or performing any activity on the web.

James Prudhomme: 7:31

The law that came into effect in Europe and in the UK effectively said that company can't do anything with that data that is not necessary for them to deliver you that service.

Duke McKenzie: 7:41

Uh, so an example of is that you could sign up for a. Let's say you sign up for AT&T you get your mobile phone from AT&T, and right now, AT&T could sell all of their datas to somebody for something else. And what this law is saying, the GDPR law is that okay, you sign up for a mobile phone services, and AT&T could only collect certain amounts of data and whatever it is.

James Prudhomme: 8:06

Thats right, only what they need from you.

Duke McKenzie: 8:08

Only what they need from you. And number two, they can't go out and sell that data to someone else. Is that what you're saying?

James Prudhomme: 8:15

That's right. And they can't go sell that data just arbitrarily, without your consent.

Duke McKenzie: 8:20

With that law, can they get one time blanket consent where no one reads, like how are they implementing that?

James Prudhomme: 8:25

In Europe, they can't, I believe today in the United States, they can, but then we're starting to see CCPA in California, right? A state level law, which effectively, users can say, do not sell my data. They can tell AT&T or whatever other company they work with. I'm opting out. I don't want you to sell my data. And so they can't do it without the user consent. That's a really important shift in the way the whole world works around data, and user level data and these sorts of things.

Duke McKenzie: 8:53

What's interesting, it seems like Europe has been really out there on privacy, on consumer privacy and all of those things. And what's interesting is what's going to happen there. it seems like it's trickling back across the pond over back to the US so that's one of the reasons why I think it's important for our users to exactly find out what was going on.

James Prudhomme: 9:11

Yeah, because the European Union, you have to remember, it's the largest trading block in the world. That's 500 million consumers altogether. The US is 300 million. So it's second largest maybe behind China. The European Union is a very big trading block and then effectively what they set after they pass the GDPR. They said for countries that want to trade with the European Union, you have to have legislation that's equivalent. Japan, for example, is now producing legislation that is equivalent to the GDPR. America has a big country, has a lot of power economically. They're not necessarily going to say, oh, okay, you're up just because you say we need equivalent legislation to do that. But even in the US at a state level than a federal level, there is a recognition that there is a need for regulation and legislation to prevent companies from abusing the data that they're able to collect from consumers. And that consumers don't end up suffering because of that. That's why you see CCPA in California. You see other pieces of legislation at the state level, there's a new one coming up, Colorado. And so that is happening now in the United States.

Kyle Kaplanis: 10:14

This new GDPR thing is putting a lot of pressure now in the US by making them feel accountable. You're now seeing, certain states step up and putting these in place and working with that. From what you see over there, what are the important things to look out for, for the U S and how that's going to change things today.

James Prudhomme: 10:31

If you're a, let's say a publisher or creator, and if you're in the business of collecting data from the consumers, people are registering at your website or you're an e-commerce site and they're buying your product and service that it's going to be really important for you to understand, what your obligations are as a controller of that data. These consumers are trusting you. They're allowing you to collect this data on them. They're giving you their consent and their permission. But the penalties for abusing that or misusing that are very, very high and even, in California and other US states. If you're, an entrepreneur and you've got a great idea for an e-commerce site and you want to, set that up and, you go to Shopify and all these different places, you can get that set up quickly, but you have to be very aware of what your obligations are as a data controller in the jurisdiction in which you operate with state, and the country would you operate as well as the jurisdiction that your users are coming from? Because even if you're a user in California and you go to a company in New York, that company in New York has certain obligations that they have to fulfill. Um, and

Duke McKenzie: 11:32

I feel like the data conversation goes like, meaning when I say the data conversation, I mean, concern from the public, right? So legislators are acting. Because they believe that the public is concerned , in your opinion, why do you think right now consumers are more concerned now? Why is it flaring up now, in your opinion? What do you think is sparking this?

James Prudhomme: 11:54

I think there's a heightened awareness. I think that, people they're sophisticated. I firmly believe that people understand what's going on out there. And I think there's a heightened awareness that, they could give data to a company. And that company could then turn around and sell that data to another company that, that consumer didn't want necessarily to know that information. Right. And when you think about, things like health information, financial information, how much money you've got in the bank, credit rating, credit, worthiness, that sort of stuff, consumers realize, Hey, that stuff could be misused. I could get denied life insurance one day. If I go to a stop smoking website and I registered there and they know that I'm a cigarette smoker. If they were allowed to just share that with every life insurance company in America, then you're going to have a really hard time getting life insurance. Right.

Duke McKenzie: 12:40

And it's none of their business to share.

James Prudhomme: 12:42

That's right. It's not the business to share.

Duke McKenzie: 12:44

That's actually a really good example. How I earned my living is, I sell advertising different types. Now I work with creators and all of those things, and I was more on the side of, well, who cares, but when you give an example like that, And helping, that's a really example of why someone would care.. I'm also a little bit more sensitive to it now that my kids are a bit older. I have , a 15 year old and a 13 year old and I'm watching how, they interact with media and, it's funny how the exact thing that they want shows up right in their feed . I'm a little bit more aware of it now than I used to be.

James Prudhomme: 13:15

Yeah, I think you're right. And I think that, that's why, for example, there's a lot of legislation to protect children. For example, they shouldn't be subjected to the same things that adults are subjected to in terms of data, gathering data, collecting data, targeting them with, targeted advertising and that sort of thing. And I think so consumers need that degree of protection. I think it's really, really important. And I think the companies understand that as well. It's part of the social contract that companies have with their customers. In a perfect world, companies would arbitrarily choose to respect their customer's data and to respect those things, but in the world, isn't perfect. So governments sometimes have to step in and legislate right. And pass laws, to make sure that consumers are protected. And I think that's what we're seeing in this case.

Kyle Kaplanis: 13:58

James, do you think, a lot of this came down because there was a period of time where people were pushing back and talking a lot about like, Hey, when I go on Facebook, it is way too targeted. It is specific. It makes people feel really creeped out. So then they're feeling like what is happening here? And who's listening to me? Do you think that was a really big portion of why this is really being pushed?

James Prudhomme: 14:19

I absolutely agree. If you go back to 2010, Facebook really it's only been around 10, 15 years, right? It's not that long in the big picture. In the early days I don't think people understood that, Hey, everything they're doing on Facebook and clicking on and talking to and posting is being tracked. And then, being built into a profile on them, that they would later then be targeted with advertising. That was not immediately clear to people on day one when they signed up to Facebook

Duke McKenzie: 14:44

what's funny, James. The thing is with technology that goes, I don't even know if it was a hundred percent clear to Facebook, , that this is

James Prudhomme: 14:49

well that's true.

Duke McKenzie: 14:50

You know what I mean? Because Zuckerberg, they could call him an evil genius and whatever, but what is interesting about Facebook and Google is that now that I think about it, especially with beginning of parts of the web. They must be collecting. So. Much data and everyone uses one of those two apps. People say, I'm not gonna use Facebook, but they'll use Instagram. Don't they own WhatsApp or something like that.

James Prudhomme: 15:11

They own WhatsApp. They own Instagram,

Duke McKenzie: 15:14

Google owns everything as well. And talk to me quickly about. When you and I were Hawking banner ads, the web was mostly a desktop or laptop function. And now the web, has moved over here predominantly.

James Prudhomme: 15:26

That's exactly right.

Duke McKenzie: 15:27

My relationship with my phone is much more intimate than my relationship ever has been with my computer, right? This knows where I'm going, what I'm doing and all of those things. Since that has happened, I'd love your thoughts on Apple and the changes they made with their data collection. And I would love for you to explain a little bit, if you can. You're an expert I'd love for you to give your, take on that a little bit. And then I'd love your thoughts on, do you think Google like the Android system will be making a similar move? What's your thoughts on that?

James Prudhomme: 15:58

Earlier on, I said there were two big trends that were driving all of this change in digital advertising and targeted advertising. Right now, one of them is legislation, which we talked about, why governments are intervening to protect consumers, but the other one, or what I'll call technical changes, techno graphic changes to the way devices work and even the way web browsers work. If you think about today, the way data gets connected, the way that an advertiser who might have data on you can then connect that to an opportunity to deliver an ad. There's two primary things in a device, a mobile phone it's called the device ID. But on your desktop or on your laptop, it's called a cookie. A lot of people have heard about cookies. The idea of mobile device IDs and cookies are going away. That's the change that Apple made effectively. They had a device ID called an IDFA. And Apple has now said that, they are going to remove the IDFA no longer make it available, to companies who want to deliver target advertising on their devices, unless the consumer consents to that particular app, being able to track them. I don't use an Apple device, I'm an Android guy, I'm a Google phone guy. But for those iPhone users, I'm sure they all saw that opportunity to consent to being tracked. Now guess what most people said when they saw a message that said, do you consent to companies tracking you on your phone?

Kyle Kaplanis: 17:19

I said, yeah, right away.

Duke McKenzie: 17:20

Did you say yes?. You're one of the few

James Prudhomme: 17:23

You're the minority. Yeah, that's right.

Kyle Kaplanis: 17:25

I was just like, go for it. I don't care.

Duke McKenzie: 17:28

But most people said no, right?

James Prudhomme: 17:30

That's right. That's right. People said no. And, Facebook took a big hit and their advertising revenue. Remember Shopify their stock went right down, right. Because they weren't.

Duke McKenzie: 17:39

Why did Shopify go down? The headline that I kept on reading was Facebook loses $10 billion,$10 billion and whatever that is. So I paid a lot more attention to what was going on there. And it's funny because there were podcasts featuring, small business owners and stuff who were like Facebook ads used to be my best. And now it's not even in the

James Prudhomme: 17:58

That's exactly right

Duke McKenzie: 17:59

cards.

James Prudhomme: 17:59

And that's why, because it's just not as targeted, and not as precise as it used to be on iPhone. Because I phones are so popular. Within Facebook, on the web or Facebook on a Android phone or Facebook , on a desktop browser. It's still okay. But I phones are a big part of, Facebook's user base. Right. And so you now take all of that out of the equation and Facebook can no longer target those individuals precisely with ads.

Jared Weisfeld: 18:24

The apple privacy changes known as IDFA. So the ability for Facebook to target and measure is becoming increasingly different. And therefore advertisers are less reluctant to advertise on the platform because there's a lower ROI. There's a lower return on investment. So that is absolutely having an impact. Sheryl Sandberg talked about that now being a multi-year journey, which certainly recalibrated expectations on when Facebook is going to be able to combat these trends. But it's not just that Brian. Right? They talked about, you know, if you remember a while ago, they did this transition to stories where they monetize less. That's now happening with reels as the new format starts taking hold. And then most importantly, within 30 seconds of the conference call starting last night, Zuckerberg talked about TikTok competition, really impacting the business.

James Prudhomme: 19:10

Effectively, what happens is Facebook has a profile on you that they store at a centralized server somewhere. And, probably multiple versions of that profile in different servers around the world. Um, and so when you log into Facebook on your desktop, they match your desktop computer with that profile. So then they know, okay, I'm going to serve ads to this person based on this profile. With iPhone devices, they are no longer permitted to match, your profile, that they have on those centralized servers with your device. So they could no longer serve targeted ads to you, within your, iPhone, Facebook app. So that's what really, taken a big chunk of revenue, $10 billion headline. I think that Duke mentioned, I agree with, and that's what's really impacted Facebook in a big way. Now the same thing is coming to Google Chrome. So Apple does this today, already with safari. But Google is now going to do the same thing with Chrome in 2023, they had originally announced they were going to do it in 2022. And then they pushed that out. They said, okay, we're going to wait. And we're going to do it in early 2023. The cookie is going away and that is going to impact a lot of people's ability to deliver targeted advertising on the web and consumers are going to see a lot of changes. They're going to start getting asked to log in to websites. So that websites can create a more targeted ad experience for them and effectively generate more revenue off of them. So there's going to be a lot of changes coming, this year and into next year, especially when that, drop dead date happens. Of, Google deprecating the cookie in the Google Chrome browser.

Duke McKenzie: 20:37

I use Chrome and what's interesting for business people and consumers and whatever is. I do like about the cookie is I don't remember. You know, I go to my BOA site, I go to these 20 sites all the time and some of them don't like, especially the meaty ones, they don't ask me any questions now. Right. Like, cause the cookie information and whatever. So there's certain things that I do like,

James Prudhomme: 20:56

and that's not going to go away. So let me make a distinction between what I'll call a first party cookie. So when you go to the BOA, Bank of America site, And you log in Bank of America has a first party cookie on you and they can still automate your login. And the difference between that and what I'll call a third party cookies. Right? So when you go to a website, let's say you go to the LA times website, there are a bunch of companies that you've never heard of that have the ability to drop third-party cookies on you. And then that could create the ability to track you across different websites around the internet. So the first party cookies are going to stay. The Bank of America, cookie, that's going to stay. but the third party cookies are going to go away.

Duke McKenzie: 21:39

Do me a favor, for everybody as this is Tomorrow Today, we're trying to try to bring everybody into this important topic.

James Prudhomme: 21:44

Gotcha.

Duke McKenzie: 21:44

Break down a little bit about a third-party cookie, as in like, let's use that New York times example, like who would it be like, who would that person, that company be that

James Prudhomme: 21:52

in a lot of cases they're advertising companies. Right. We talked about SSP earlier and DSP explained that an SSP in the marketplace that a publisher would sell their ads in and a DSP is a system that an advertiser would use to buy those ads. So if you today visit the New York times or the LA times, or a lot of different websites, these SSPs and these DSPs are able to place a cookie on your web browser and then use that as a mechanism of tracking you across different websites. The thing is that consumers haven't permissioned them. They haven't given them consent to do that. What Google is effectively said and what the other browser Firefox does this as well. Although Firefox is not as popular in the US as say Chrome or Safari. But what these browser companies have basically said is we're going to remove the ability for these third-party companies to put cookies on your browser. Because if we don't, chances are the government's going to come along and do that anyway. I mean, anyway. Right. And to the point that you guys made earlier, consumers are concerned about this stuff. It's the same Kyle, you mentioned Facebook getting hyper-targeted, it's the same thing of , wait a minute. I was just on the Nike store looking at a new pair of trainers. And now I'm seeing Nike ads everywhere.

Kyle Kaplanis: 22:59

It's so true.

Duke McKenzie: 23:00

What's this follow you around

Kyle Kaplanis: 23:02

follows you everywhere.

James Prudhomme: 23:03

And people, get this, they're aware of this. They're people in a sophisticated, they're not just a coincidence so that all of that stuff is going to become much, much harder to do to deliver that type of targeted advertising. It will still be possible, but you'll need the consumer's consent to do it, to do it. and it puts a lot more control into the hands of the consumer, which I ultimately, even as a person who makes my living, selling targeted advertising effectively, or facilitating targeted advertising to Duke's point about having children and, I've got children as well. I actually think it's a good thing. And I think it's going to be good for the industry. It's spurred a lot of inovation.. And a lot of, companies that are innovating and raising venture capital and, figuring out new ways to do these things. And I think ultimately that's a really positive and a force for good in the world.

Kyle Kaplanis: 23:48

Absolutely.

Duke McKenzie: 23:49

Yeah. I agree. Okay. I'm going to ask you a dumb question. I'm going to ask you to walk me through like a two year old, so I go on the Nike site. Yeah, right. They recognize me when I go on the Nike site, how has that ad following me everywhere? Are they following me? Or is it in my browser? And they're okay. Okay. And then they know. And then go ahead.

James Prudhomme: 24:09

Yeah. So what happens is you go to the Nike site and you look at a certain pair of shoes, right? There's a third-party company that Nike works with. That's a partner to Nike, right? Cause they got Nike's permission to do this. That is going to drop this cookie on you.. In that cookie is going to be encoded a little bit of information. It's going to just say, these were the shoes that you looked at on the Nike website. Let's see what's in the last 10 days. Right? So then when you go visit the New York times website or the LA times website, or whatever your favorite website is. Then that third-party company that Nike works with is going to be able to see that cookie and say, oh, this guy was looking at this pair of Nike trainers within the last 10 days. We're going to show them that again. And we're going to discount it, whatever, show them an offer. And it's effectively down to the device level. So you're right, Duke, it's the browser, where the cookie goes. Cause if you go on your friends computer, Or your wife's computer, your girlfriend's computer, whatever. And you go to the LA times. They're not going to know that you would

Duke McKenzie: 25:01

Right, Right,

James Prudhomme: 25:02

Now there are some ability, whether you're on your computer or your mobile phone, there are some, opportunities for companies to be able to know that you're the same person using that device. But, if you then turn around and use your girlfriend, boyfriend, partners, whatever mobile phone. Then they're not going to be able to write as far as they're concerned, that's a different device. We've probably all seen it with friends of ours in relationships. Somebody borrowed somebody's computer and it's like, wait a minute. Why are you seeing an ad for that dating website? wait a minute. Hold on there. These kind of awkward moments they created as well. Right.

Duke McKenzie: 25:38

I'm going to veer this off. Have you spent any time thinking about, even though I know it's probably not what Optables working on right now? But what is your thought on, , voice and how they get used target targeting? Let me tell you why I'm asking you this question. There's a conspiracy theory going around that like I have a Siri and a, apple thing and a Google and Amazon and get a Google thing, like whatever. And I swear. And I'm in the business, I'm in the business. Not as much as you, but I am in the business. And I swear, it's listening to me. I swear to God. But what, I don't know, because I know enough about the technology to be dangerous. I'm like, okay. It is probably collecting a ton of data from the conversation from my voice, they will probably using right now to help them with their AI voice recognition and all those things. But I swear to God, if I'm talking about. Going on vacation, all of a sudden I'm seeing gamer thing for vacation, but I don't even know the thing is I don't know how they would physically do it, like how they would transfer that voice piece of data. That's why I think it's a,

James Prudhomme: 26:38

it's certainly possible. And yeah, you're, having a conversation with your wife going on a vacation, do this, maybe we should go to The Bahamas maybe we should go sking, or whatever. those little keywords, it's possible. I can't say for sure that Google or Amazon or these companies that are in that business are doing this, but it's certainly possible for them to pick up those keywords, make that part of your profile. And then, next time you're searching on Google and the next time you're on Amazon's website, they're serving you ads for these things. I've read a little bit about this. I have just for disclosure, I have five or even six Google devices in my home. There's basically one in every room of the house. Right. So you're not scared. You are not scared. You're not scared. What's the worst that's going to happen. Right. You know, and, and it's, you mentioned that earlier Duke as well, if there is a certain convenience factor, right. You know, if I be like, oh honey, we ran out a dishwasher soap, the little dishwasher pellets, wouldn't it be great if that just showed up at the door, like a few hours later, like without even having to think about it, but you know, we're getting a little far, we're getting a little far into the future. What I've heard and what I've read is that, companies like Google and Amazon have basically said, it feels like sometimes that's what's happening because you're talking to your wife about a vacation or whatever. But there are other ways, whether you're searching on Google and sometimes you just, you don't even remember that you might've searched on Google, right? Yeah. And you're using it so often, but it just so happens that like Kyle, to your point, when you see that targeted advertising, you're like, wait a minute. I was just talking to my wife. It must be listening to me. But the reality is I don't think that they are, they're just picking up other signals from your search, from what you're clicking on in Facebook, et cetera. I think that's probably more likely where it is,

Duke McKenzie: 28:22

but it feels like it, these guys are watching us and listening to us. The fascinating thing about data and again, a little, little off track and , just talking here. So I was reading an article. I can't remember where, but you know, when you go to Amazon, you use that example of Amazon, like in rolling. You don't want it goes to Amazon? It almost feels like it knows, like I order these pencils from Amazon. it knows that I wanted those pencils at that time. And what they're saying, and I'm like, this is messed up. I didn't know I need these pencils, but I need these pencils. How did that go? But what is interesting about data? The data is getting so good and meaning the volume of data with AI, the targeting tracking and all of those things put together that at one point, the prediction , is that Amazon is just going to send you stuff . And, it'll be cheaper for them just to deliver your stuff and it may not be perfect. They'll send you a bag of things. Oh, I don't want these two things, but they'll send you 10 things and it will be cheaper to take the returns on the two things. That's how good the data that they're getting. I don't know if that's scary or good, but that's where it's going.

James Prudhomme: 29:19

It's interesting, mark Andreessen, who's a really famous venture capitalist, and recent Horowitz. He's a very famous guy. He invented the first web browser, if you're old as me and you remember that stuff. And so he had a really famous quote, going back several years. Now that software is eating the world, right? So everything's being automated by software. And I think that the revision to that now is advertising is eating. And to your point, that data's being used to predict the things you're going to want before you might even remember that you need them or want them. And so that example that you used with Amazon, just saying, Hey, we're just going to put a bag of stuff at your door because we think this is what you actually need right now. That's entirely possible. But the other interesting way that's happening is advertising and that the data that drives it is becoming so valuable. There's a great example in the UK where I live. In the UK, a lot of people use sky television, satellite TV service, some of you might've heard of it. Was very popular people, they have all the live sports contracts, all the soccer and football and all that. So a lot of people signed up for it. Sky now is giving away televisions for free. Um, because they know that they will be able to make money from the advertising. smart, connected televisions that have to be connected to the internet. So it's basically this world and, you could imagine one day , I'll make a prediction one day a company will say, we're going to give you a free refrigerator, as long as you agree to buy groceries from us. No, no,

Duke McKenzie: 30:46

no.

James Prudhomme: 30:47

If we're going to put a camera in that refrigerator, we're going to know when you leave, when you need butter, they would

Duke McKenzie: 30:51

know, and they would, my wife would love that. I'm not able to lose that extra 10 pounds. They would know, and they would just keep up, you know what? That is funny. That last place to leave it off. I'm going to the quote I'm this is what I'm going to quote, I'm going to quote, before we say goodbye to James. Advertising is eating the world.

James Prudhomme: 31:08

There you go.

Kyle Kaplanis: 31:09

I love that

Duke McKenzie: 31:10

2022. Thanks a lot for coming, James. Really appreciate you. Thank you guys.

James Prudhomme: 31:17

I enjoyed it a lot. Right? Take care guys. Bye bye.