How do you invest in people such as creators or serial entrepreneurs? In this episode we discuss how with Principle at Slow Ventures Megan Lightcap!
Duke and Kyle dive in deep in an interesting conversation about how media is changing quickly focusing on digital first creators and that means big business for venture companies to invest in people!!
GUEST:
Megan Lightcap
Prinicple at Slow Ventures
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Duke McKenzie
Kyle Kaplanis
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Kyle Kaplanis
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How do you invest in people such as creators or serial entrepreneurs? In this episode we discuss how with Principle at Slow Ventures Megan Lightcap!
Duke and Kyle dive in deep in an interesting conversation about how media is changing quickly focusing on digital first creators and that means big business for venture companies to invest in people!!
GUEST:
Megan Lightcap
Prinicple at Slow Ventures
Be sure to Follow the Tomorrow Today Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts so you never miss a new episode.
Follow us on Social Media
Duke McKenzie
Kyle Kaplanis
Duke McKenzie
LinkedIn - Duke McKenzie
Kyle Kaplanis
LinkedIn - Kyle Kaplanis
TikTok - @theweb3guy
IG - @kyle_kaplanis
YT - The Web3 Guy
Hello everybody. Welcome to Tomorrow Today. I am your host, Duke McKenzie and we got my co-host here.
Kyle Kaplanis:Kyle Kaplanis what's going on, everybody.
Duke McKenzie:I'm all right. I'm now we have an excellent show today because we have a very special guest, Megan Lightcap. How you doing Megan?
Megan Lightcap:I'm good. How are you guys?
Duke McKenzie:I'm doing good. Now Megan is a principal at Slow Ventures, which is an early stage venture capital firm that invests in startups and seed stage social media networks, consumer brand slash crypto, and all those fun things. But the reason why we wanted to get Megan here and talk is because she was brought there and taxed with trying to figure out how to invest in people. How to invest in creators. How to invest in entrepreneurs. And full disclosure, we have talked about a couple things and all of that type of stuff. And Megan and I were talking and I'm like, this is fascinating. Just try to figure this all out opens up interesting conversations. Like how do you do that? Where is in, when you do normal venture, right? There's an ecosystem and a formula basis in, okay, I have an idea. I go get my friends and family. Now I do a seed. Now I do a series A. But as the world is changing and everything is going on, there has to be a way to unlock the value of creators and unlock the value of serial entrepreneurs. And those are the things that we've been talking about. So before we even get into that. My first question is, Megan, do you like doing really hard things or do you like pain or do you like, cuz this seems like a really like, like this is a crazy problem. Are you like a long distance runner or something? Do the ultra-marathons cause before we even talk about what you're doing? Yeah. I'd looked to him like, how did you get here? Yeah. And like, what you're doing is hard. So like, I why are you doing? I think it's great, but why on earth are you doing this?
Megan Lightcap:So I am not an ultra distance marathon runner, by any stretch of the imagination. The past four years, I worked across two really early stage startups, and got the startup bug and just like seeing things come to life. Building a company is really, really hard. And then prior to that, I had cut my teeth in consumer investing. At a consumer fund called Catterton, actually now L Catterton. Where I was, sat on their growth team. So did you know, two or so years of growth investing with them. And then the opportunity was Slow to really, invest in creators, invest in individuals. It felt like an interesting blend of those two experiences. If you think about, next generation consumer investing. And we can talk a little bit more about, what I mean by that. And then truly building a startup within Slow, right? Like it's funny, Sam, when I was talking to him about this role, he was like, look, you're gonna come in and draw in the dirt. Right? This is as much a startup as what you're doing before. And so I think for whatever reason that was the draw, for better or for worse.
Duke McKenzie:Right, right, right.
Megan Lightcap:I really like it. I know this sounds a little bit cliche, but, it's helpful when chatting with founders or, entrepreneurs or creators or whatnot, to be able to empathize, with what they're going through and building something from scratch.
Duke McKenzie:What I think would be helpful for everyone listening is, I would love for you to give a helicopter view and a dumb down version, like explain to me like I'm a four year old, as in, when we introduced you and I said, okay, she's investing in people and that's crazy. It's hard. What does that mean for Slow? And what are you trying to do? And what does that mean to explain to everyone.
Megan Lightcap:From Slow's perspective, we basically have this thesis that the biggest brands of tomorrow are actually gonna be people led versus company led. Obviously, brands and corporate still have a place in this world, but I think you're gonna start to see more and more brands built on the heels of people. Mm-hmm . And so if you believe that to be true, then the next question is, okay, well, how are these financed? You have this cohort of folks that, you know, super well Duke, obviously in the creator world of people who have highly engaged audiences, and they have these massively loyal fan bases such that their cost acquisition is effectively nothing. And so they have this huge opportunity to really own the equity and build an asset in and around that. But the question then becomes well. Okay. Well, how do you do that? Right. You basically have two options. One is you finance that with personal debt, or you have a wealthy father or uncle or mother or whatever.
Kyle Kaplanis:Right.
Megan Lightcap:Whereas fairy godmother, and then the other option is, you grow slowly off of the, the cash drip from brand deals and sponsorships and whatnot. But as you and I have talked about, I think that presents a really interesting problem because that type of revenue is one in one out where do the activity to earn it. Mm-hmm . And so if you're making the decision to say, okay, I wanna build a massive brand or a massive company, based on my niche or my audience or whatnot, that takes a lot of time and focus. We just talked about how hard it's to build a startup, right?
Duke McKenzie:Mm-hmm,, Megan Lightcap: It's very hard to do that brand deals or sponsorships or whatnot. And I think we're Slow comes in is okay, could we provide seed capital to folks in the same way that we do our companies, to really accelerate growth in, whatever they wanna build. So long winded way that's the general thesis, but we're obviously excited about it.
Kyle Kaplanis:Megan, I believe in everything that, you are looking to achieve because I a hundred percent agree that people will be the focus. Right. And I think that it's funny that you mentioned it because brands will be a person, a part of that, that has to be their face and focus. But it is so true that creators are having a hard time because they can't rely on brand deals. They're so inconsistent. And yet they have these big dreams and big goals. They have an audience to back up those ideas. They just need that support and leverage. So what a perfect opportunity to step in and say, Hey, we're gonna fund or work with these creators and provide them some opportunities financially.
Megan Lightcap:Yeah. And I think the coolest part about this is you meet certain creators and they're have the same DNA as like our seed founders. Right.
Kyle Kaplanis:Totally
Megan Lightcap:entrepreneurial, really freaking scrappy, get the joke. And they're like, look, these platforms and my distribution is really a means to end and it's not the end. So I think for those that see that opportunity and have that ambition, I think it's a really interesting opportunity for them.
Duke McKenzie:That's fascinating. So when you're modeling, meaning like thinking, okay. I have to figure this out, because I've looked, and what's interesting is that. I do believe in the next, months, probably maybe six months, 12 months, whatever. There will be more Meghan Lightcaps, but I'm telling the world I'm telling everyone I, there is, there is no other Meghan Lightcap out there right now. There are people that are flirting with it in different ways.
Megan Lightcap:Yeah.
Duke McKenzie:And things like that, but the example that you said was you're drawing in the dirt, it is a bit drawing the dirt, trying to figure this out. One of the things that I find useful and, as everyone knows, we work with creators and Kyle does as well. And all of that type of stuff, when you're trying to model out and say, okay, what is the potential of someone that could become that did it before? What type of creators do you look at for that or that you're saying, okay, this person did an excellent job. Or I find this person fascinating that, they've been here doing it for 20 years or even an old TV personality that was able to pivot. Who are the people that you find interesting that you say, if this person does this, this, this, they could end up like so and so.
Megan Lightcap:The way to answer the question is that, there's obviously mental models of folks in yesterday year that are relevant and done it. Obviously Oprah Winfrey is the OG, right? You have, Gwyneth Paltro with Goop you have Dave Portnoy. You have all these people who have created massive equity value on the heels of their personality and their brands. I think the one thing that's a little bit different that you have to take into consideration now is, when Oprah was up and coming,
Duke McKenzie:mm-hmm,
Megan Lightcap:she didn't really have that much competition. And by the way, that's not belittle what she did, what she did is amazing.
Kyle Kaplanis:Mm-hmm
Megan Lightcap:but if you look at our moment in time, what is the likelihood that Oprah could have done what she did today?
Duke McKenzie:Right, right.
Kyle Kaplanis:So true.
Megan Lightcap:I think for us the thing that we get really excited about are folks that own a specific niche or vertical mm-hmm, so much so that they almost become synonymous right. With that story. And they can go really deep in that. And then. Oh, by the way, a whole bunch of opportunity in, and around that category. If you think about the profit pool that sits there, it's not just that specific product that they're talking about or they're focused on it's, ancillary stuff and services and whatnot. The sky's the limit with this stuff. So as we think about, Who is the north star , I would almost say it's less about people who have owned a specific category. Cause I think the dimensions are a little bit different now or dynamics are different now. I think it's more about, what can you learn about folks from the past, 20- 25 years in terms of building a rabbit fan base. Those are the lessons that you can bring forward today to say, okay, how do I just nail this audience segment, nail this category segment and build like a cult-like following in and around it.
Duke McKenzie:Right, right. And dig deep down. What I find fascinating right now is you made an interesting point. We're in a unique period of time where celebrity, if people can't see, cuz I don't know if I'll have the video, but I use that in air quotes is what I was doing is that some of the most famous people on the planet right now, someone could be really famous to 10 million people, 20 million people, 5 million people, 1 million people, and really important to those 10 million people. But no one else knows who that person is. My daughter's turning 16 and my son is 14. Can't believe I have almost a 16 year old. I dunno. It's a crazy thing. I just like my strategy with that is I'm just like all I tell my dad, like, sweetheart, I love you. I love you. You're spite of what I just, I just, I just love you. I just, just so you know, your, your father loves you. But what is interesting is that. They, how I find a lot of the talent that I work with is because of them what is fascinating is that their friends think my job is cool and that the people that I work with are cool, but parents and gatekeepers have no idea, like no idea who these people are.
Kyle Kaplanis:Mm-hmm, Duke McKenzie: but that goes onto that you will see people that will break through and have their moment in the sun for a period of time. And then it's what do they do with that? I don't know if with the decentralization of distribution with social media and it just keeps on growing, growing, like rapidly. Okay. If we're going to see another version of Oprah again. Do you know what I mean? I think you might have someone break through. So I have a product like that time where there were, let's say 10 really large stars or, Tom cruise just came back. Right. But there was a period of time where Tom cruise or will Smith before the slap or whatever owned, there was a period of four or five or six summers where Will Smith owned the box office. He had Men in Black, then he had this and I don't know if in that item of celebrity, if we're going to see that, if that's the model, if not, what you're talking about is what the future is, is in people that go really deep or if they have a mass following, they figure out how to, okay. These are all the people I have. How do I go really deep on a subset of these people. Yeah. And really own this group.
Megan Lightcap:Yeah.
Kyle Kaplanis:Yes.
Duke McKenzie:That's the future of fame. That's another work influence moving forward. That's where I think it's moving forward. The shift from even SEO standpoints, like TikTok is now moving into that direction. So I think owning that particular field of subject, if you're a home renovator, when I think home renovator I think of this creator. And if that creator owns that category, they're an Oprah Winfrey of that market.
Megan Lightcap:Yeah. And I think it's important distinction is to be made between I'd say like these category specific folks versus broad talented entertainment. I actually think the Tom Cruise, I don't know who the Tom Cruise of today is, whether it's. Oh, my gosh. I'm gonna embarrass myself like Tom Holland. I have no idea.
Duke McKenzie:I'm right, right. I don't know if there is one, cuz Tom Holland, but I don't want you to miss you. I want you to remember your points to write it down, but I didn't mean to interrupt you. I went to go see Top Gun, right? The reason why Top Gun grossed X amount was because of Tom Cruise
Kyle Kaplanis:hundred percent.
Duke McKenzie:I love Spider-Man. I got to go see part of the filming, right? When they were doing that. Tom Holland, I don't know if there's an actor. There's only one actor that I know right now with fame that could carry a movie out like that. That is a newer actor, not from back in the day. And that's the Rock, right? The rock and that's because he's an influencer. He has whatever he's
Megan Lightcap:I was just going to say, by the way, The Rock is moved well oh,
Kyle Kaplanis:the creator space. Exactly.
Duke McKenzie:He's more of a creator right now,
Megan Lightcap:I do think that celebrity, celebrity, right? I think just by the nature of film and movie and music, there's just such odd distribution. Taylor Swift, she's a great example. Not that she's the modern day Oprah Winfrey, but is One Direction like the Beatles of our day. Right. I think like this, that fandom still holds in TV music , movies mm-hmm . But I think when you get into more, almost like hobby centric media, or, entertainment. I think that's where the category stuff really comes into play.
Kyle Kaplanis:Yeah.
Megan Lightcap:It's almost like I was having this conversation with, Josh Kaplan from Smooth Media and he made this characterization. He was like, creators had the opportunity to be the new trade associations. 20 years ago, maybe you were subscribing to Plumbers of America and Wood Workers of America. That was your thing. Now. You're probably following the top woodworker on YouTube, Instagram. TikTok and tune in every single week to their podcast, right? Yeah. I think this type of fandom in and around certain hobbies and activities and communities just looks and feels different, which I think is distinct from this broad based celebrity.
Duke McKenzie:Right, right. What I find interesting. There are two things that I wanted to say that I find interesting. So one point that Kyle made about how gen Z and just people in general, it's broken past gen Z, cuz I'm 46 and fresh and I'm starting to do it too. Right? They're starting to use TikTok and other platforms for search. So there was an interesting article, I wanna say it was on the information actually, which is, which is like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanna say it was on the information, which is a trade bubble. Was that 40% of gen Z used TikTok and Instagram for search. Instead of going to Google, that's their primary search, which is just it's bananas. Right? The way that people are going to be using technology even five years from now. Cause because I realize, so I always try and reinvent and have an open mind of just for myself. Right? Like what I say, reinvent, just like I, I converted from our CRM tool. I switched. And the other day. And it's because I've been using this CRM tool for the last 10 years and I just use it because I use it, but the world has changed so much in the last 10 years, we should look at other things. Right. Like, just because, just because, right. And the way that I communicate, I'm like, wait one second. It's just fascinating how, I use Google as my primary search, but as the people that we are trying to reach and the people that are going to be building the next generation of consumer brands and everything like that, they don't use technology, not even the way. So I'm 46 and fresh. Kyle, you're probably a decade younger
Kyle Kaplanis:I'm 35.
Duke McKenzie:Are you fresh? That's the whole thing.
Kyle Kaplanis:I'm fresh.
Duke McKenzie:All right. Dope, Dope, Dope . There is, there is a major shift in how people are even viewing and looking at technology. With the rise of these next generation of creators. I spent a lot of time on TikTok the reason is, is because we work with a lot of born on TikTok creators, and that's because the bet that we are making is that short form creation is going to be the future of entertainment. So the people that master that, when you look at YouTube in two years and Instagram in two years and starting right now, it will look like. What TikTok is doing and everything will start all looking like that. And the interesting thing about that and what we're finding. we are blessed to be able to talk to everyone in that field and really dig down. But what is interesting is that these group of creators and what TikTok and shortform has done has created people that actually have a wide swath of people, as in, they're able to generate a lot of views and a lot of attention and all of those things and where they have been having challenges and a part of it is new versus a YouTuber of a similar size is that their communities aren't fully there yet. And the question is, and the reason as we're betting is well, why is that? For a YouTuber to get a million followers, it took years, right? It took, they had to grind and short form creators, all of them, whether you're on Instagram or whatever. All of them, the whole category is a three year phenomenon. But what we are finding when you look at people in the top 100, even in the top 500 or whatever, is that I am trying to figure out solutions and thoughts of cuz brands come to us and all of that type of stuff. I don't wanna use the word tier two celebrity or whatever this person is not Oprah, or not this mainstream celebrity. It's not that category, but Slow has worked with a creator that I've been following,
Megan Lightcap:Marina,
Duke McKenzie:Marina. And marina I follow on Instagram on my professional channel and I watch her language and she is owning I'm an immigrant through the United States. By the way I'm Canadian, I'm an immigrant to the United States and this is my language and immigrant experience and she's owning that particular category. Right?
Megan Lightcap:Totally.
Duke McKenzie:And what I'm finding interesting. And I don't have an answer, but these are the problems that we are spending, trying to solve and I'd love your thoughts on this is. There's this large in between that when you look at the Charlie Damileo's and the Michael Le, whatever it is, there's this large in between of people that are not like Tom Cruise
Megan Lightcap:mm-hmm
Duke McKenzie:They're not Taylor Swift or someone even more relevant. I think what you find in the market brands and even social media platforms that everyone is trying to figure out, how do you deal with this sort of new category of celebrity or I don't know if you watch, Stranger Things it's like in the, in between, in the like, you know what I mean? Like they're in that they're in that weird stage, cuz they're able to fill out stadiums, they're able to do these things. Addison Rae got a Netflix deal, right? Yeah. Like they're able to get people to watch. And the currency seems to be the views, like a currency seems to be, if you are able to get stuff on short form and get people to watch, you could get people to watch here, but then everything else is mixed, right? Whereas I bet you, your creator that digs deep into languages. I bet she can sell courses like nobody's business.
Megan Lightcap:What comes to mind is and I'm pulling from my, consumer investing training, I suppose. I think what it comes down to is if I'm a brand and I'm trying to, trying to make a decision about these folks, I think it's a question of, are you optimizing for discovery or are you optimizing for retention or. Thing. And I think that's actually a key difference. And I think where the creators that own their category have outsized advantage is in this repeat loyal customer, which by the way, is where the LTV comes because you don't have to pay the cost of requisition.
Duke McKenzie:Right.
Megan Lightcap:So if you're Walmart like. You should 100% partner with, the top short form creators, because they're just getting more eyeballs on the thing that they're trying to push or, their seasonal drop of X, Y, and Z product. I think there's a really interesting distinction to be had between the concept of just pure discovery, top of funnel, get the, get whatever you're doing out there for first time viewers versus. True conversion. Second, third, fourth time thing. But I don't know. To your point, I think it's something that everyone's quite frankly scrambling to figure out.
Duke McKenzie:I don't know what you think Kyle. I'm trying to wrap my head because when I watch my kids or I watch their peers, cause I like to watch them because even, we just hired an intern and the intern that we have, fresh outta college and whatever. Yeah. That intern uses technology differently than I do. I'm heard. It's so interesting. No, it's fascinating.
Megan Lightcap:I do this on the subway. This is so creepy. I probably should be this, but it's the most fascinating consumer behavior study, which is just figure headphones on the subway and you just watch how people interact in their phones and what they, and how they use the subway. You can learn so much.
Duke McKenzie:Yeah, no, it's fascinating. I do believe because gen Z has an eight second attention span. Right. And that's just a predictor of where we're all going is in my attention, span is shorter than it was. Yeah. 10 years ago, 20 years ago and whatever. Right. So maybe we all don't get to eight, maybe as gen Z ages up and whatever their attention span expands. But the key factor of is the biggest, most limited, resource right now is attention, right?
Kyle Kaplanis:Yeah,
Duke McKenzie:Because it's gonna be less, right? It may not be X, everyone may not be eight seconds. Maybe it ages up, but people are willing to only spend less and less and less attention on things. And one of the things that I find fascinating with the rise of what all of these social media companies are spending, investing billions of dollars, trying to catch up to TikTok and all of those things is again, full disclosure I am making a big, big, big bet on short form. It's just, no one knows what to do with it yet.
Megan Lightcap:Right.
Duke McKenzie:I can't remember who made the quote of everyone gets their, five minutes of fame there. It's creating another tier creator that won't fit this conversation of what you're trying to work on, but like someone that shoots up and is famous for three months, You know what I mean? Get those it's fascinating. Right? They, they do,
Kyle Kaplanis:it happens a lot.
Duke McKenzie:Right. And Kyle, you see that all the time because you run our talent department here, but what's fascinating is that, and you're trying to shift is that like the rise of short form, this never happened as much. Everyone's getting their five minutes of fame and I don't even know what that means. I'm trying to figure out, I'm trying to figure out what does short form mean and I'm trying to figure out, okay, well, what does that mean?
Kyle Kaplanis:Short form is also changing the way we use technology. And I just wanna mention this cuz I always find this fascinating when I'm watching people in public is the way they use their phone. Traditionally, millennials and up a lot of people are filming horizontally. I watch them in public filming, taking pictures. Ah, but gen Z, because short form content is king and what everybody's using, they, that was you right? Vertical. No, you are right. That is interesting. Very
Megan Lightcap:interesting stories that we just creep on people all day long.
Duke McKenzie:Yeah, no, that, that is the moral. That is the moral. Now, as we're winding down, um, , that is funny. I'm gonna like, why duke? Why are you staring? I'm like, no, no, no, not creepy. I'm just trying to understand. As you are diving in what is surprising you as you're digging in and you're drawing in the dirt and you're just trying to figure out okay. Hi, I'm investing in people and do you deal on the entrepreneur side as well? Or just on the creator side?
Megan Lightcap:I do. Yeah. Yeah.
Duke McKenzie:On both, I'd love to hear what are some of the surprises and lessons that you've learned on when dealing with creators and entrepreneurs as well?
Megan Lightcap:The biggest surprise, and maybe this shouldn't necessarily be a surprise, but I think is when I ask the question to creators or frankly, serial entrepreneurs, but I think more so on the creator side of this key question of use of funds, if you had an war chest to just. Freaking go for it. what does success look like in 10 years? Their first round of answers is oftentimes like a little bit muted and you're like think bigger or think bigger. It's natural because I think there are not that many examples of creators who have done massive, massive things on the heels. Personality and brands. And so I guess it's both a surprise and I think it's also a fun kind of opportunity that I see, coming in the future, which I think as more examples come online of people doing this, and getting creative with , what they can actually do with their audience. I think the creativity and the ingenuity around it is just like the wheel is gonna start to spin. That like age old thing of The fastest mile was oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Someone broke the record and then the bar just keeps getting set and sometimes it just takes someone to push the bounds a little bit for people to, unlock that next level. So I think that's been, I guess my biggest surprise. And then on the flip side, it's also an interesting, filtering mechanism for who is the right creator to partner with, because if they don't naturally have that, entrepreneurial bent to say, this is how I would think about, allocating dollars to the next six months or two years. Sometimes they'll have an answer that's fantastic for 10 years out and you're like, they get it. If they don't, I think that's an interesting signal to say, maybe they're just playing a different game.
Duke McKenzie:right, right.
Kyle Kaplanis:Or don't have a good mentor system.
Megan Lightcap:Yeah. We can do a whole other episode on like, you know, how to, and actually I chatted about this with, Josh Kaplan were starting a little YouTube series or whatever, but, what is the role of a manager or kind of COO in a creator org and how do you reconcile what a creator organization looks like? V C V kind a regular IC Corp and what are lessons that can be learned? We can do a whole other podcast on that.
Duke McKenzie:yeah. 1, 1, 1 quick thought. What is interesting and how we've been starting to explain it internally to even for ourselves to try and mimic. Because when you work with creators and you manage them or you do those things, you're in a weird spot because they're not actors and actresses and whatever. They're all trying to build businesses, right? Even the ones that are more entertainment bent there, they're all trying to build businesses. The example that I use is I'm like, guys, you're actually more like an Eric Smith. So Eric Smith was the, chief operating officer at Google, I don't think he's there anymore. The two founders turned in to be excellent entrepreneurs, obviously they had a great idea and they didn't need him at one point, but when he came on, it's more of the role of unlocking the business potential of the creator versus. There's a tension going on with, traditional Hollywood. And cause the system is actually set up in one way, it's a crazy thing. It's set up one way and the next mega star, wherever that looks like will actually look more like the. Right. The rock is the next example. And the rock, if you look is a major, major entrepreneur, most of his money will be coming from that. he co-produced this cartoon with him in, Kevin Hart, the superhero movie. He's actually co-produced it as well. He's part of the studio and all those things. And that's what it looks like. But if you look at the support system that is set up for these creators, that sort of bent up, that's not what is out there for them. Yeah.
Megan Lightcap:I look, I think the reality of the fact is that Hollywood has always been incentivized on the incremental deal. Right. Cause that's how they paid and fed and the whole thing, but like, I think when you make that mental shift towards, okay, now we're talking about an entrepreneur whose distribution is their creativity. I think the difference is short-term versus long-term trade off that folks have to make, and it's a very hard line to walk. But I think it's an important one.
Duke McKenzie:I love that. let's leave it at that. That is a great, great thought. Great, great, great thought. Kyle and I, we appreciate you coming on. Kyle, I think this is gonna be a very interesting episode.
Kyle Kaplanis:I'm excited about it.
Duke McKenzie:Yeah. It's just fun. No problem. Thanks Megan
Kyle Kaplanis:Thanks Megan.