COMMUNITY, COMMUNITY, COMMUNITY!!!
We are in the new world where your community is where your value is, not in your follower count! We are seeing a massive change on how advertisers are working with creators and due to more resources and tools that advertisers have to track metrics and performance we are seeing advertisers quickly changing their budgets to focus on more creators who actually have a solid community.
Join the conversation as we take you through our experience with this right now!
Be sure to Follow the Tomorrow Today Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts so you never miss a new episode.
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Duke McKenzie
Kyle Kaplanis
Duke McKenzie
LinkedIn - Duke McKenzie
Kyle Kaplanis
LinkedIn - Kyle Kaplanis
TikTok - @theweb3guy
IG - @kyle_kaplanis
YT - The Web3 Guy
COMMUNITY, COMMUNITY, COMMUNITY!!!
We are in the new world where your community is where your value is, not in your follower count! We are seeing a massive change on how advertisers are working with creators and due to more resources and tools that advertisers have to track metrics and performance we are seeing advertisers quickly changing their budgets to focus on more creators who actually have a solid community.
Join the conversation as we take you through our experience with this right now!
Be sure to Follow the Tomorrow Today Podcast wherever you listen to podcasts so you never miss a new episode.
Follow us on Social Media
Duke McKenzie
Kyle Kaplanis
Duke McKenzie
LinkedIn - Duke McKenzie
Kyle Kaplanis
LinkedIn - Kyle Kaplanis
TikTok - @theweb3guy
IG - @kyle_kaplanis
YT - The Web3 Guy
I find that really interesting, this new breed, a new crop of creators that are building products and building services. You take Item Beauty with Addison Rae. You take Joystick with Michael Le. Even Virtual characters like Lil Miquela is now the face of PAC sun. There's a real powerful movement in the communities that drive these creator. Whereas this whole idea of traditional old celebrity is dying a very, very quick death.
Kyle Kaplanis:Hey everyone, welcome back to Tomorrow Today. In the studio I got my main man over here.
Duke McKenzie:Ladies and gentlemen, Duke McKenzie here Tomorrow Today.
Nadine Jarrard:Our special guest is back for another week.
Duke McKenzie:Nadine, you came back.
Nadine Jarrard:I did
Duke McKenzie:ladies and gentlemen, Nadine Jarrard
Nadine Jarrard:I had so much fun the last time I decided to come back.
Duke McKenzie:Wow. Welcome back. Welcome back. I didn't think you were gonna come back, but we're glad to have you back.
Nadine Jarrard:Thank you, thank you for having for having me.
Kyle Kaplanis:Any of you that are listening, follow me and things that I've been doing, you would know that I have been such an advocate right now on the subject of followers versus community. And how important going forward with social media is Community. You really need to focus on that. So we're gonna dive in and give you more insights and our thoughts around followers versus community. Nadine you're our guest so kick this off.
Duke McKenzie:Kick it off.
Nadine Jarrard:For a lot of people that don't know, there is a massive difference between followers, people that follow you and your fans, people that are die hard will do anything you do will buy whatever you put out there. Know every single detail about you and in the last year or so, there's been a heavy emphasis on community rather than followers. Talking about platforms and talking about all this social media fragmentation, there's a really strong community that's happening in YouTube right now. And a lot of people would say, well, the reason why YouTube has really strong community and really strong fan base is because of the fact that it's a long form content play. Whereas TikTok, someone can have a hundred million followers or have 20 million followers, but if their community is following them based on the trends and based on, how much they like their dancing or how much they like their jokes, but is not really invested in the individual or the artist or the creator themselves. Then some will say that's not as rich as a community. I think it's really interesting, especially with this day and age, you are seeing a lot of creators launch products and services. Take for example, Emma Chamberlain. Emma Chamberlain started a coffee company a couple years ago because she is a huge coffee fan. She recently closed in on a 7 million dollar series A funding. It was really interesting because here is this YouTuber that basically started out of nothing and was able to build a really, really devout following. Because of that, she was able to really hone that following into a lot of her passions and convert a lot of her followers into fans and into purchasers. I find that really interesting, this new breed, a new crop of creators that are building products and building services. You take Item Beauty with Addison Rae. You take Joystick with Michael Le. Even Virtual characters like Lil Miquela is now the face of PAC sun. There's a real powerful movement in the communities that drive these creator. Whereas this whole idea of traditional old celebrity is dying a very, very quick death. Hopefully that paints a clearer picture of the difference between the two. What do you think?
Duke McKenzie:What do I think?
Nadine Jarrard:I'm dying to know.
Duke McKenzie:I know the world is dying to hear what is Duke McKenzie think. What is interesting between community versus followers is that what I'm finding right now, as I've been working a lot with shortform creators, and that is a phenomenon that's happened over the pandemic. And what is interesting about them is that they have a lot of reach and they do get a lot of engagement, but what they are starting to work on, and what we are noticing is that they need time to develop, to build stronger ties and relationships with their fans. What's interesting is that you will see someone that has been working on their YouTube channel or even their Instagram channel, but they've done so for the last, let's say five or six years. Their audience might be a lot smaller. And I'm not talking about micro influencers or anything like that. They may be large and have a couple hundred thousand people or half a million people. But you find that they're extremely engaged and the reason is that they've taken the time to really nurture their community.
Kyle Kaplanis:Yeah.
Duke McKenzie:And one of the things that when we are talking to this next generation of creators and talent is it doesn't happen overnight. You could go and get a lot of followers because you're entertaining and that's great. Attention is the most valuable commodity in the world at the moment. However, in order to build that community, there's no real shortcut around that. You have this major platform, whatever it's taking time to build that relationship one on one with your fans.
Kyle Kaplanis:I think the problem is creators of TikTok like you said, longer form you have to work harder mm-hmm so you put in the work, whereas TikTok has kind of handed these people a ton of followers. And so they believe in their mindset that's how it is and they don't need to nurture them because TikTok are gonna keep handing it to 'em.
Duke McKenzie:Mm-hmm
Kyle Kaplanis:But they're starting to see the slow.
Nadine Jarrard:Right.
Kyle Kaplanis:They're starting to see that slow down.
Nadine Jarrard:Yeah.
Kyle Kaplanis:And realizing to garner those views, you have to have a community that comes and follows everything you put out. But in order to do that, You have to start talking with your community. They have to see you're a real person and giving back mm-hmm and going live, doing things to get their attention and to put trust in you again as a creator.
Duke McKenzie:And what, and what you find is that the creators that are doing that are the ones that are standing out that are evolving.
Kyle Kaplanis:Yes.
Nadine Jarrard:Yeah. I think it's really interesting because the first year that brands was really, really paying attention to TikTok was I would say, 2020 into 2021. 2021 was obviously a huge year for TikTok because a lot of brands were like, all right, fuck it we need to be on this platform. Let's throw a bunch of money, and not really understanding how the money's being serviced. There was no measurement or ROI, but now brands are getting smarter. They're looking at engagement. They're looking at, is this creator moving product? If I'm paying a hundred thousand dollars per post, what am I getting back? And as advertisers, and brands are getting smarter, creators are like, wait a minute. Why am I not doing as many deals, brand deals that, that I've done this year that I did last year. And part of our job too, is really educating our creators on the importance of community rather than followers. You can get as many followers as you want, but does that translate to community? I think, YouTube is another great example of that. It's really hard to grow on YouTube.
Kyle Kaplanis:Very
Nadine Jarrard:Acquiring a million subs on YouTube is really, really hard. And people that are subscribing to your channel on YouTube are diehard fans. People that really want to know what's going on. Same thing with Twitch, we haven't really touched on Twitch, but Twitch is very gaming centric and a lot of hardcore gamers will be on Twitch and follow, their streamers because they're down for the cause. And TikTok is more, I don't wanna say accidental, but it's more happenstance. You see a video and you like it, and you throw a follow. So it's really easy to build a huge following base. And I think that's contributed to the problem.
Kyle Kaplanis:Mm-hmm
Nadine Jarrard:I think this is all gonna shake out in the next couple of years, as advertisers get smarter as TikTok builds up better, more robust targeting and insight solutions for advertisers. Advertisers will look at engagement numbers. They'll look at other things aside from follower account. I think that will cause creators to really look very closely at what they're doing and make changes based on that behavior. Mm-hmm
Kyle Kaplanis:And I think creators have the issue right now is that they're using their followership to dictate their own rates
Nadine Jarrard:mm-hmm
Kyle Kaplanis:for their channel, but that's changing. Right. And we're seeing that quickly, that rates no longer correlate with your followership, but they correlate with your community. We work with several creators in many different levels of followership, but then there's a couple creators that we work with that are under 5 million that are bringing in more money than some of our 10 to 20 million mm-hmm follower creators.
Duke McKenzie:It's interesting cuz follower account is important if it's a function of follower account engagement and the type of content that you put out. Right? Like that seems to be the function. Cause we have worked with creators that yes, have high engagement, but the brands really like the content that they make mm-hmm , as in it's a really good fit. So they'll pay a premium for that.
Kyle Kaplanis:Yeah.
Duke McKenzie:But it is those functions. Follower account, there's a standard metric of all those, but then engagement's really important. How many view are you getting on your latest videos? Are you able to translate one of the things that was going to say there are two types of creators and you can see it that have had success at translating on other platforms as well. That is a good, that is good indicator.
Nadine Jarrard:I think you said something really important and valid is that a lot of creators will say, I hit 10 million, I hit 20 million. Does that mean my rates are gonna go up and I'm like absolutely not. It really depends on your engagement numbers. And TikTok is now allowing advertisers to go on their dashboard and look at engagement numbers, you that engagement, then you're gonna get better rates. You're moving product. If you're moving services, you're gonna get higher rates. Follow account on TikTok is essentially nothing. Yeah. Unless you're able to really engage. And I see creators all the time growing, growing, growing on TikTok, but they're not engaging with their fan base. Yeah. Right. They're not consistent with their fan base. That causes issues down the line because brands are becoming more and more smart on the app.
Duke McKenzie:What is fascinating is that you will see some creators that are large, that are not relevant any longer mm-hmm and it's because of the lack of engagment and the lack of interaction with their fans. And it's a lot of work. People always laugh oh, you work with a bunch of creators. I'm like, these are some of the smartest, hardest working people that I've worked with, they're working all the time that are on the clock because you have to engage your community and making content and engaging them. But in order to stay relevant. The grind of the job and everything is that if you stop, you're not relevant. And you get called out very quickly.
Kyle Kaplanis:Exactly. Also, I think it's important as a creator right now is you have to be innovative with your own content. It's like a TV show. If you watch the same thing and nothing changes, there's no action, there's no, cast changes. People stop watching the show. It's boring. It's run down, whereas same with your content. Those people that are doing the exact same thing from musically days. I'm like, right's not, it's not gonna work
Duke McKenzie:my things innovate. I find people that have the most success is that they do innovate. But they innovate that's true to themselves. It's new, but they're doing something that is true to themselves as they keep on expanding, but you do have to evolve, have to evolve.
Kyle Kaplanis:And another thing I noticed is the content. Before it was very sound on, right? TikTok music was like the most you hear. Now, we're seeing a massive shift and this is correlation to high engagement is people who talk. Storytelling is one of the most engaging content that you'll find. And I think advertisers are gonna start stepping away from creators who just dance and moving their budgeting dollars into people who can tell a story.
Nadine Jarrard:Yeah. TikTok specifically is deprioritizing dance videos.
Kyle Kaplanis:Yeah.
Nadine Jarrard:At this point you really truly can find anything you want on TikTok. Whatever content it is, whether it's cooking videos, whether it's crypto videos, whether it's cannabis videos. There's a plant section of TikTok called Plant Tok.
Kyle Kaplanis:Yep.
Nadine Jarrard:There's so much on there and there's something for everyone. When TikTok first came on the scene, there really trying to be an educational platform. And I think they lost wind of that the last couple years being really heavy, concentrated on dance videos, and now they're back. They're deprioritizing dance videos. They are really concentrating on educational videos of all kinds. So there's larger communities that are being built on TikTok because of the diversity of the actual content. I think that's very important to pay attention to. I'll say one thing too is, creators are the new celebrity.
Duke McKenzie:Right.
Nadine Jarrard:If you think about the traditional way that people looked at celebrity, it was all based on who are they dating? What movies are they in? What's their personal life? What are they eating? What are they doing? Where are they traveling to? And people still have a appetite for knowing really intimate, personal things about people they love.
Duke McKenzie:Right.
Kyle Kaplanis:Yeah.
Nadine Jarrard:And creators need to pay attention to that. I have a lot of creators that are not interested in air in their personal life and that's fine. It's just not where the direction is going. Right. Mm-hmm . And so if you're not allowing your audience to take a sneak peek into your intimate, most personal experiences, then your audience is not gonna feel connected to you. Yeah. And they're not gonna want to invest the time that they would, any other celebrity. Yeah. And so it's something to really pay attention to because it's a really interesting time right now where it's the death of this old traditional movie star, celebrity and the emergence of, the social media driven creator that is the expert in their content. It's a really interesting shift. And if you're able to maneuver and swerve a little bit and adjust, I think as a creator will prove to be very, very successful.
Duke McKenzie:Do you know who does a good job of going from the old world into the new world where I think that creators that are born on digital first should take a look at is the Rock, Dawayne Johnson, right?
Nadine Jarrard:Yeah. Yeah.
Duke McKenzie:If you look at The Rock right now, The Rock is built a community around fitness, working out, being positive in all those. But the reason why, yes, he's a movie star and people think that's what he is first. But if you follow his Instagram channel and even his TikTok and all of those things, he's basically spending all of his time growing his community, which allows him to promote his products, which allows him to grow. The rock had one of the movies, Hobbs and Shaw, Fast and Furious break off mm-hmm he basically got the rights, he produced it. And he took everyone through the journey of making the movie on his Instagram channel and his TikTok. He took everyone through all the scenes, how he got prepared, fitness wise, all of that type of stuff. And that movie, which was relatively cheap to make and everything, tripled and tripled its money and became very, very popular. And because he basically marketed and promoted it mm-hmm and took people on the journey as Nadine was saying through its TikTok channel. Everyone needs to follow that example as they grow and build, take people on the journey. One of the creators that we work with born on TikTok creator, Michael Le, he has launched a new start-up called Joystick. And one of the things that he's been spending more time doing is talking to people about why he's doing it and taking people on that journey. And that's an important part of that because yes, that's not core his comedic and dance content and all those things, but that's an important side and people are fascinated by seeing that type of stuff and that side of his journey.
Nadine Jarrard:I think what's really important to note too, is we get as a company, we get so many requests from celebrities asking to align with the top TikTokers, because they want to stay relevant. Mm-hmm and they're completely lost. A lot of them have no idea what to do. They feel like they should adjust the way that they behave or the things that they're passionate about because of the platform. That's such a fallacy. Right. I don't know where anyone got that from, but I think what's admirable about people like The Rock and Will Smith prior to the slap
Duke McKenzie:Prior to the slap.
Nadine Jarrard:And people like, Gary V and people like The bar stool guy, Dave or knowing. Yeah. These are older type entrepreneurs and celebrities that have really built a gen Z audience. Yeah. You've been successful at that because they say things in a way that relates to the younger audience and everything that they're doing seems super authentic. Right? Mm-hmm , mm-hmm, , they're not listening to what someone's saying about trends and songs and things like that. They're essentially what they're doing is they're being super authentic on the app and they're presenting themselves as is, and it's resonating. Yeah. Yeah.
Duke McKenzie:I think that hit the nail right on the head, as in the only way to build community is to be authentic. It doesn't mean you have to share all yourself, but when you look at The Rock. The rock is authentic. Like him working out and his fitness thing is authentic to a part of who he is. Right. I'm sure he doesn't reveal everything on it, but he is authentic. And I think that's an important part of building community. And I think that creators should spend some time doing that. Kyle, how would you close us off with thoughts on that?
Kyle Kaplanis:Yeah, just tie in something, we all know Stranger Things, we all know how successful stranger things. I think one of the biggest ways is again, all the people that are in stranger things, Noah Schnap p and all them, they all have a really good community on TikTok.
Duke McKenzie:Right.
Kyle Kaplanis:And they are fun with their community. So people wanna support the show. Like obviously the show is a success, but I think it contributes back to those people, look like real people, like the gen Z audience. And they're like, I'm gonna go watch them cause I know these are my peers and I'm gonna go support that show. And I think we're gonna start seeing that. And if celebrities are not doing it, their no longer relevant.
Nadine Jarrard:An old IP for example, Top Gun did super well on TikTok, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it was, what, 35 years old?
Duke McKenzie:It was 35, 35, almost 40 years old when it came back out.
Nadine Jarrard:Yeah. And, I'm sure someone in their teens or early twenties have no idea what that movie's all about. And it really found an audience on TikTok because the marketing of that movie was just really well done and they really paid attention to attracting a new, younger audience. Right. Right. Who did that on TikTok? Same thing with minions. Mm-hmm minions really found a place on TikTok. Yes. The marketing for that was impeccable. But then you take other movies that came out around the same time that were huge, I'm not gonna say who they are.
Duke McKenzie:The names. Yeah. Don't hurt our business. I don't want any phone calls.
Nadine Jarrard:My mom had told me you don't have anything positive to say, don't say it. there's other movies that came out, big budget movies, huge marketing budget, and they didn't do as well because they didn't take that into consideration. Totally. And so look at what's succeeding. Look at where the numbers are. Look at where the audience is. Build something that's truly authentic that speaks to the audience. Mm-hmm. I promise you, it will go places.
Kyle Kaplanis:Absolutely.
Duke McKenzie:Nadine, you closed it twice.
Nadine Jarrard:Just call me to close it
Kyle Kaplanis:twice. Call me at that's. What I do. You
Duke McKenzie:always be closing. That was a great way to kick off. Ladies and gentlemen, please subscribe to Tomorrow Today. Please leave a review. I'm Duke Mackenzie.
Kyle Kaplanis:I'm Kyle Kaplanis.
Nadine Jarrard:Nadine Jarrard.
Duke McKenzie:And thanks for listening. Talk to you soon. Bye.